• Debra Chantry-Taylor

How to work together in your business & stay married with Jeni & Nick Clift - Episode 10

Updated: Mar 16

3 Top Tips from Jeni & Nick 1. Working Together - Never, ever assume that the other person understands what you mean.


It's specifically important with your partner but it's also very important with staff as well. So, it's very easy for someone of my personality, I've got a great idea. I've told you what this great idea is, just go make it happen. And then they'll go, Oh yeah, that's a great idea, but have no plan on how to execute and vice versa. Jeni can be telling me something, and I'm going, Yeah, whatever, and I haven't really understood what she wants so, there's an expectation.


What was it that I heard the other day? Disappointment equals expectation, minus reality or something. it's like, you know, I didn't even know you expected me to do that. So how could I ever be successful?


So just get clarity on what you're doing. And if you're not sure, don't be scared to put your hand up and ask the question. I mean, that's the number one thing I've learned.

2. Work to your Strengths It's much easier to work to your strengths and try and you know, get some, you know, ‘fix’ somebody's weaknesses. So really, you know, particularly as a couple, Nick’s thing is sales, mine is people and with our merger, Milan’s is tech.


So, you know, perfect for our industry and we're really clear on, you know, I look after the people next head of sales, and Milan looks after the tech side of the business. So, understand what those strengths are and stick to those and stay out of other people's business.

3. Have Fun! You don't want to start a business and have it be that dreadful job you don't want to turn up to. I mean, life is truly too short.


And I have definitely, yeah, there's a, there's a balancing edge there. Like I think at some points during our journey, we've probably lived too much of in the present, and had too much of a good life, like, right now in here with our kids, and we've done lots of stuff, and not had that long term planning. So, if there is a balance, but you don't want to be just grinding away and drudging away at something you don't like, because there is a way to fix it. And that's, that's what I truly love about the whole EOS thing is, it's 90 days sprints. And if it's not working, change it. You know, don't keep doing it for three years. And I used to think that you could, I was really bad at this, you could find a problem solve it and set something I'm putting in place and then forget about it, you know, and then all of a sudden, it's three years down the track or four years down the track and what worked four years ago is completely irrelevant now. So, and especially, you think about in the last 12 months, you know, what happened in 2019 didn't work in 2020. And what happens in 2020 is not going to work in 21 because we're just changing so quickly. So yeah, just constantly questioning the norm, I suppose and never, ever just not set and forget. Yeah.


Find Nick & Jeni here at , www.dwm.com.au. Emails are jeni.clift@dwm.com.au and nick.clift@dwm.com.au.


Both on LinkedIn, both on Facebook. Nick checks Facebook about twice a year, maybe once a year. But probably LinkedIn is the best. Unfortunately, my mother couldn't spell when she named me Jenifer with one N. So, spelling of my name is J E N I so that makes it difficult. But yeah, lots of places to get hold of us.






Read full transcript here:


SUMMARY KEYWORDS

business, Jeni, nick, people, staff, run, milan, role, big, eos, coach, years, implementer, suppose, partner, life, started, challenge, merger, felt


SPEAKERS

Nick Clift, Jeni Clift, Debra Chantry-Taylor


Debra Chantry-Taylor 00:07

So welcome to another episode of better business, better life. My name is Debra Chantry-Taylor. And I'm here today with Nick and Jeni Clift. And Nick and Jeni have been working together for 25 years and they’re here to talk to us about how you get to work together and still stay married. So welcome, Nick and Jeni, thank you for coming on board.


Nick Clift 00:24

Hi.


Jeni Clift 00:25

Hi, Deb Thanks for having us.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 00:28

So, tell me a bit about your business. What is it that DWM solutions does?


Nick Clift 00:32

We're a managed IT service provider. So, we basically help businesses maximize the utilization I suppose of their IT investment. And our real purpose, I suppose is, is to help the staff and the people be as productive as possible. That's what makes us kind of different to the average PC fix-it shop, if you like.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 00:53

Right, okay. Jeni, what's your sort of take on that?


Jeni Clift 00:57

So DWM, we’re Australian, doesn't really actually stand for anything but one of our clients came up with Don't Worry, Mate years ago. So, we've just run with that. So, when somebody says, you know, what does that stand for? It’s like yeah, don’t worry mate, we're looking after you, you don't need to worry about your IT. So, for us it's, as Nick said, it's more than just IT, it's about helping people solve use technology to solve business problems. You know, Nick and I have been running our business now for 25 years, by putting extensive experience beyond that. So, we know what, you know, the trials and tribulations of running a business. So, we try and bring that into what we do, rather than just fixing stuff that breaks.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 01:39

Sounds great. And we’re gonna delve a lot more into that in a moment. As we get started, I always like to let our listeners get a bit of an understanding of who we're talking to. So, would you both mind just sharing a professional and a personal best in your life at some stage?


Nick Clift 01:54

I think I'll do the personal first. So, the one of the great drivers for us starting a business was having control of our own destiny. And for me, the biggest achievements been that we were able to create a business and environment where we could take young people and teach them and give them a start in the world. And, and luckily, we're able to do that with both of our sons. So, for me, a great achievement has really been the fact that we've been able to obviously, during the process of running the business, we've also had a family, and both of our boys have ended up working in the company. And our eldest son, Oscar is still in the company, and our youngest son, Sam is now working over in London for another similar type of business to us. So, for me, that's my personal best win. And from the business perspective, I suppose we recently just completed a merger with Milan Industry. So that's, that's been a big goal for us for the last five years, is to find another partner to help grow our business that shared our common values. And yeah, the values were the main thing about that.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 03:02

Pretty major achievements, and what sort of sizes that make your team now?


Nick Clift 03:06

We're about 30 staff now. All across Victoria and internationally as well. So, it's a big team. So, we doubled the size of the business overnight effectively. So that was a big challenge. Yeah.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 03:19

Yeah, fair enough! Jeni, what about yourself?


Jeni Clift 03:21

Nick stole both of mine. I’ll have to think of something else. So definitely personal, I trained as a coach, back in about 2016, 2015, somewhere around there. And I think just the personal growth from that, you know, we kind of started reading a lot of books and doing a lot of personal development on our own, probably 20 odd years ago, but training as a coach, the change in me much, much better person much better able to cope with stuff that goes on in my life. And also, now bring that into the business. But what I'm seeing is the relationship with the boys, who now in their early mid 20s, and just have an awesome relationship with both the boys. As Nick said, one here working on business, the other ones in London, and business, I think, a little bit along the lines of what Nick said, two of our team started with us straight out of high school, you know, 18, 19 years old, you know, put them through traineeships, they both actually left one for about a year one for a few years and have come back. And for me it's just a real feeling of pride there. You know, absolute rock star employees. really solid performance would do anything, you know, all that stuff. You know, I say that they've walked out of hot coals for us and the culture that we've created. But to just sit back and look at these guys and going have been with us a long time. They came to us really young, one straight out of Uni as well, still with us. You know, they've got married, they've had kids and they're just part of a family.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 04:59

Wow, that's awesome. That's really lovely. Yeah, cool, okay, so I'm really intrigued because I've recently got married, as you know, and I love my husband dearly, but I could not imagine ever being in business with him. And he'd say exactly the same thing about me as well, so there’s no surprises there! What on earth made you want to go into business together?


Jeni Clift 05:18

It’s funny because I actually look at them in the reverse and say, why wouldn't I want to build a business and a lifestyle and our legacy with anybody but Nick, why would I want to do that with somebody else?


Debra Chantry-Taylor 04:35

Yeah, fair enough, Nick?


Nick Clift 05:35

Yes. That’s true.


Nick Clift 05:40

Just for the record, we have been married for 30 years. And we've been working together for 25 years. And, I think it is awesome and it's a bit unique, but like, we had the same passion. And we would go for hours and hours, like, this is the first time today I've spoken to Jeni. So even though we've worked together for 25 years, we have different roles. And I think that's the secret is, don't get in each other's business. Like you've got your role, I've got my role. When issues pop up here, you talk about it, but that generally happens at home, not at work. And as long as you've got a vision of where you're going to that everything else, all the little bumps in the road can come up and be overcome. It's that it's really having that big picture of where we're trying to get to in the business and in our lives. And that's what keeps it together and keeps it neat. And I agree with Jeni, like, if I had to spend, you know, 70, 80 hours a week with someone in the business, why wouldn't I want to spend it with my partner? I love you, Milan, but not as much as Jeni!


Debra Chantry-Taylor 06:42

I'm gonna catch up with Milan in a later episode won’t we, so we’ll ask what his opinion is! Ok so...



Jeni Clift 06:47

We have been able to use the business to travel extensively. So, you know, back in the olden days, when we would actually travel, you know, we'd have a week's conference in, you know, four or five days, whatever, in the in the US, we go to Mexico for a week, and we come back to another conference for another few days, and then come home. So, you know, and to be able to do that together and, you know, go to conferences, and you know, just constantly looking for ways to improve ourselves have those experience, you know, again, love you Milan, but not doing that with you.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 07:18

So, you said that you've got that quite distinct roles. Are you actually co-founders though? Did you start the business together?


Nick Clift 07:24

Yes, we did. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of started off with. You know as a tech, I was the tech, the engineer, we had a contract to deliver some services to regional Victoria. And I kind of ran the engineering side and Jeni ran all the finance and the whole admin, everything like that. And we quickly develop the team up to about 20 staff. And then we bought some partners in and that didn't go so well. So, we kind of had to reboot. And it was bad the time in about the mid 2000s, 2008, we decided to bring a coach into our business, I think it was actually for one of the staff before for us. And then we kind of went around this path. And we ended up joining a peer group, and we got a business coach in to help us with some stuff. And that's when things got really interesting because that was like Jeni, you know, her role dramatically changed, like we were, the coach basically said to us, you guys are not going anywhere, because you have what I call a love fest. They were kind of three partners in the business and we all worked as leaders and managers...


Jeni Clift 08:34

Not holding each other accountable


Nick Clift 08:35

Yeah and there was no hierarchy and there was no accountability. So, we basically just went around the room, and we would just hold kind of not wanting to make any decisions. And neither is right, I've had enough of this. Jeni, you're the new General Manager. Nick, you're in charge of sales and, or you're in charge of service. And that was it. And it was like a bombshell. And Jeni wasn't expecting that none of us were expecting any of that stuff. But that was the start of setting us up to be even more successful. So, I went from being the kind of managing director running everything and Jeni helping me to now she's the boss, and I had to report to her. So that was that was a challenge.


Jeni Clift 09:15

Yeah, how long did you sulk for?


Nick Clift 09:17

Two years


Debra Chantry-Taylor 09:22

I guess. Yeah. So how did that feel for you now Jeni? That suddenly being thrust into, you know, GM. that's a fairly meaty role, right?


Jeni Clift 09:27

Oh, absolutely. And, you know, we had 20 something staff at the time. Nick, actually sulked for two years. By his own admission, he's to say it was one year and then after a while, he said, actually, I think it was two, and our other partner was even worse. So, in the end, we decided to part ways with him. We brought a coach in prior to work with a member of the team. And you know, I don't know why, you know, things happen the way they do but then I actually started working with her because I had to make that real mindset change from, I’d always looked at myself as really not adding much value to the business. And honestly, I thought I did all the shit that nobody else wanted to do while you know, the boys went and did the real work. And that was all about me and the way that I thought probably wasn't what anybody else thought. And Nick said to me since, you know, you're the one who kept everything going. But that's just not the way that I saw it. So, I started working with the coach to really, you know, what's the general manager? How do I step into that role? How do I manage these two people that are saying, yes, yes, yes, we, you know, we think you can, but their actions are saying otherwise. So that was a real transition for me. And I guess, part of my real personal growth, to be able to hold myself accountable, to hold my two partners, one of whom I'm married to, accountable, and then flow that down into the team. And I think that's really when the business went from being a standard run of the mill tech company run by a tech, to you know, for me, it's all about people. And we really started to transition that into that sort of people driven culture, IT company, which is really quite different to what most aren't, particularly then back in 2010.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 11:20

So, what tools did you use to kind of help? Because it's got a fairly significant change, again, to go from being a typical kind of IT company to being people lead. So, what tools did you use? Or how did you deal with that?


Jeni Clift 11:33

We tried lots of different things. So, we love going to conferences, it gives us the ability to travel, but it's also you know what other people doing and the IT industry is really unusual in that we love to help each other, you know, tell each other how we do things and share experiences and tools. So, we try different things and some work, some didn't. And then probably three years ago, now we're at a conference and as we always do. You, Nick went to one session, I went to another one and because we've been looking for something that gave us the ability to get out of operational roles, we've always had this dream of being an employee led business, for Nick and I to be able to get out of our employees' way and let them run the shop. And so, we went off to different sessions and met afterwards. And Nick has gone, oh my God, we're going to have to try this EOS thing because the session I went to, the guy was talking about EOS and the book traction and I went, um, this book? The person that I'd sat next to in a completely different session, not about EOS, the guy that I sat next to, we started chatting before it started and about you know, stuff. And he came up to me after the session and he said, this is the book, you've got to get this book, you've got to do this. So we went, okay, it's a sign and came home and then sort of went on the search to find an EOS implementer. So that was the big change. And now, I'm out completely, I contract a couple of days a week for People in Culture. So coaching, development, training, that sort of thing. And Nick is now completely non-operational. He's our visionary. And he's literally just gone into that role. And now trying to figure out, what does a visionary do to add value to the business because it's really easy to kind of go back into what you know, which is sales for him. And you know, just get busy doing stuff and then you know, a month later you back into the trenches, which is where neither of us want to be.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 13:30

Yeah. So, for those who don't know, EOS is the Entrepreneurial Operating System that kind of focused on those six key areas of your business. And you traditionally have a Visionary, a high level person who is taking the business forward, looking at what can be done, and looking for those big opportunities. And then you've got the integrated being the next level down. So, do you have an integrator now in the business?


Jeni Clift 13:54

Yeah, we do. So, we went through the merger back in July. And we had a member of the chambers, our integrator, but we've actually just swapped some roles around again, quite a big business now as Nick said, 30 staff. So Milan, our business partner is our integrator. So, do you want to talk about his role?


Nick Clift 14:13

Yeah, sure. So, I think it's a key, a key challenge. And the key success factor is actually having people in the right roles. And those roles, and those people change over time. So, there's an old saying that what got you here is not what's going to get you there. It's so true. And I mean, the great thing about the structure we've got in place with EOS is that we review that every quarter. So, our leadership team has changed dramatically every quarter in the last nine months because we put the two companies together and said, right, everybody's in. Yeah. And then that’s filtered out and there were some roles that kind of, obviously didn't need two people doing the same job. So, that changed and then there was other roles where that didn't make sense or that didn't fit their skill set. And it's just an evolution over time. So yeah, this last quarter Milan has taken on the integrator role. And he's, he obviously ran his own business Milan Industries and did everything. So, he knows it intimately. And he's much more systems orientated and data driven than what I am. I go off gut feel, and you know, what solves problems, not necessarily technically stuff.


Jeni Clift 15:24

So, it's shiny object?


Nick Clift 15:25

I might have an occasional shiny object. Yeah.

It's a good, it's a good process. And, and regardless of whether it's EOS or something else, you definitely need to have a system and a methodology on how to help people be the best they can possibly be. And that's what the challenge for us in our business is not necessarily finding technology and finding clients, it's finding good people. And then sometimes you can't find them, you have to build them. And so having a process where you can bring somebody in at a level and then know that they've got a growth path to get to the next level is super important. And we've got a number of staff on hand saying now that, like Jeni said, before, startup straight out of school, and by way of recruiting right now, for people as well, it's really exciting to see new people come on and go, Oh, wow, you guys have got all these systems and processes, I can see where to go. And I can see how to how to be successful. This is fantastic


Debra Chantry-Taylor 16:22

Yeah. And it's really interesting, because Jeni, you're also an EOS implementer. And as I am, and so we now work with other businesses helping them to implement this system. I don't know about you, but I'm always a little bit gob-smacked by some of these sorts of, you know, large established businesses have been going for quite a long time, and yet are missing some of those basic kinds of things that can really make a huge difference. Do you see the same?


Jeni Clift 16:47

Oh absolutely, yeah, I run some mastermind groups. And I'm constantly amazed at the lack of knowledge of some business owners, the lack of systems and structure and you know, they've got so much stuff in their head and kind of, and I know, we've fallen into this trap before, you know, we employ smart people, why don't they know what to do and do the right thing? Well, because they can't see into our heads and know what that is and we're not able to articulate that. So, something like EOS gets all of that stuff out of your head, into a system into a document, into processes and procedures and policies, and all of those sorts of things that people can then look at, understand if they don't, they can ask questions, and become scalable. But, there are so many we've seen, we're seeing now, particularly after COVID, in our industry of lots and lots of baby boomers, who built this business that might have been going for 20 or 30 years. And that's been their nest egg, their, you know their retirement fund. But because everything's still in their head, and they are integral the whole business revolves around them. They can't sell it and that superannuation, that's their retirement is actually worth nothing and it's heartbreaking. We've had these conversations with a number of people who have said, you know, would you buy this business, this is what we think it's worth, and we've looked at it and said, well, it's actually not worth anything or, you know, maybe, you know, 50 grand, and they're thinking millions. And, you know, so something like EOS gives a business that structure that then actually makes the business run, you can get out and get as your podcast, you know, have a life. Now we can go away for a month, and nothing breaks. We had a month or five weeks in Europe, Christmas a couple of years ago, and we got three phone calls. One of them was Nick's Dad, you know, they don't need us, which is exactly what we want because that structure, that system just means that the business can run without you.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 18:59

Yeah, that's fantastic. And I guess that means it kind of allows you to get all the things that you're really good at and really love doing. Rather than all the stuff that often as business owners, we're doing everything right.


Jeni Clift 19:09

Yeah, and becoming an EOS implementer.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 19:12

Yeah, that’s right. So, what has been the biggest kind of challenge that you guys have had as a husband and wife working together?


Jeni Clift 19:21

I'll talk about one. Years ago, I went to a vendor event and Nick was supposed to attend, and I think it was actually sick, which is unusual. So, I went with four of our staff, and the five of us walked in and the vendor said Oh, great. You're here, where's Nick? And we said, well, there's five of us, does that not make up for Nick? And they said, No, not really. Nick was the business you know, he you know, when when everybody thought DWM, it was Nick, and I always kind of felt you know, completely sort of overshadowed and you know, sort of, you know, a bit of, you know, played second fiddle and then Nick way to an event, Christmas time just gone and walked in, and they all went, Oh Nick, where's Jeni? So, for me, that was always a real challenge of nobody saw me. I was kind of invisible. And I think a lot of women in you know, husband and wife businesses are, you know, you're perceived as the bookkeeper, you know, the one who makes cakes on people's birthday, you know, cleans the office when everybody's gone home you know, that's the sort of perception. So, for me, that was always a real challenge, you know, I always felt that my surname, maybe I should have gone back to my maiden name so, people didn't know that we're married so that I actually sort of was seen a bit more valued more.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 20:45

Yeah


Nick Clift 20:46

Yeah


Debra Chantry-Taylor 20:50

How does that impact your relationship, because I wouldn't mind betting that there may have been a little bit of sulking going on with Jeni


Nick Clift 20:57

No that's been perfect all the way along.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 20:57

Oh ok


Nick Clift 20:58

No, it's really interesting, because it's the key thing for us, I suppose there’s always been ups and downs, but we've been, whether it's by design, or by good fortune, or luck, or whatever, but we've never both been down at the same time.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 21:13

Right


Nick Clift 21:14

So, whenever something has gone wrong, and we've lost a big customer or deal didn't go through, or I felt like I screwed up, or a key staff member left or something, you know, I'd be moping around and then Jeni would be, she'd be fine. Like I can, we just got to focus on this, what do we need to do? And vice versa, or something else happened and Jeni was down, then I was up. So luckily, we've never been both down at the same time. And I think that comes about having a shared vision and shared goals and what are we doing this for, you know. We have definitely always had the attitude that we're not going to work in your own business for a job. You know, for those out there that are thinking of starting their own business, especially with their partner, you work twice as hard, got half as much money. But you do get to have control over what you're doing. And the upside, the benefits are amazing when you get it right and for us, we've had an amazing lifestyle. And now, we've lived a fantastic life with our kids all growing up through school, and now they're in their 20s. And they're independent off doing their own thing. That that for us was our number one goal. And now, we're in, now... approaching our middle ages. The challenge is to reset that reset that big goal and that big focus on what's next. So, we had a you know, three or four years ago, we set this goal to, to do a merger and bringing our businesses together with somebody else. So, we've kind of achieved the first part of that. But now, we're on a more of a strategic business growth strategy versus a family lifestyle strategy is what we had for the first 20 years. So, you do go through these cycles. And if there's anything I've learned over the years, it's, make sure you're on the same page. Because when, as a good technical male, I always want to fix the problem. And that was probably my biggest learning is when Jeni and I learned to have a new kind of language, which is shut up and listen, I'm just venting. Do not try and fix anything. When we got that language, right, it was so much better for everybody.


Jeni Clift 23:23

And I think I’ve actually said him, I don't care if you're not listening, just look like you're listening.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 23:29

Yeah, it's funny, because there's obviously some quite distinct differences with males and females and whether we do communicate, so it's good that you’ve been able to recognize that, find a way to deal with it. Do you use the whole EOS stuff for your family life as well?


Jeni Clift 23:43

No, we've always been pretty good at setting goals and having things and as you know, when we sort of reflect back so you know, the times when we've been really focused and really, you know, kick goals and Got stuff happening is when we've been really clear on working towards something. And the times that we've been kind of lost and drifted and really not achieved very much is when we haven't had those goals or you know, we've reached something and then haven't reset them. So, we probably have by default, but we don't use it. Like we don't have our you know, our vision traction organizer for ourselves for the next three years. I think we probably right now where we are we probably actually need to do that, because we've got some pretty big plans for what we want to achieve over the next couple of years but I think we've kind of done it by default.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 24:31

And I think the three-year picture, when you start to paint the three-year picture that brings into aspects of where do you want to be? What do you want to be doing doesn't it as well? So, it's great to see that you're continuing to grow, can't wait to see how it goes going forward. Before we finish up, I'd love for you to share three tips with our listeners. That can actually help them and they can go away and kind of actually action right away.


Nick Clift 24:55

Yeah, so I think based on the theme of this podcast, which is I'm working together, the number one thing is to never, ever assume the other person understands what you mean. And it's specifically important with your partner. But it's also very important with staff as well. So, it's very easy for someone of my personality, I've got a great idea. I've told you what this great idea is, just go make it happen. And then they'll go, Oh yeah, that's a great idea, but have no plan on how to execute and vice versa. Jeni can be telling me something, and I'm going, Yeah, whatever, and I haven't really understood what she wants so, there's an expectation. What was it that I heard the other day? Disappointment equals expectation, minus reality or something. it's like, you know, I didn't even know you expected me to do that. So how could I ever be successful? So just get clarity on what you're doing? And if you're not sure, don't be scared to put your hand up and ask the question. I mean, that's the number one thing I've learned.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 26:01

Perfect, thank you for that.


Jeni Clift 26:01

And I’d say, work to your strengths. It's much easier to work to your strengths and try and you know, get some, you know, ‘fix’ somebody's weaknesses. So really, you know, particularly as a couple, Nick’s thing is sales, mine is people and with our merger, Milan’s is tech. So, you know, perfect for our industry and we're really clear on, you know, I look after the people next head of sales, and Milan looks after the tech side of the business. So, understand what those strengths are and stick to those and stay out of other people's business.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 26:39

Perfect, one final tip?


Nick Clift 26:42

Um, have fun! You don't want to start a business and have it be that dreadful job you don't want to turn up to. I mean, life is truly too short. And I have definitely, yeah, there's a, there's a balancing edge there. Like I think at some points during our journey, we've probably lived too much of in the present, and had too much of a good life, like, right now in here with our kids, and we've done lots of stuff, and not had that long term planning. So, if there is a balance, but you don't want to be just grinding away and drudging away at something you don't like, because there is a way to fix it. And that's, that's what I truly love about the whole EOS thing is, it's 90 days sprints. And like it's not working, change it. You know, don't keep doing it for three years. And I used to think that you could, I was really bad at this, you could find a problem solve it and set something I'm putting in place and then forget about it, you know, and then all of a sudden, it's three years down the track or four years down the track and what worked four years ago is completely irrelevant now. So, and especially, you think about in the last 12 months, you know, what happened in 2019 didn't work in 2020. And what happens in 2020 is not going to work in 21 because we're just changing so quickly. So yeah, just constantly questioning the norm, I suppose and never, ever just not set and forget. Yeah.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 28:13

Yeah, that’s perfect. Great. Okay, so well, thank you. We've come to the end of our sort of 20, 25 minutes, so really appreciate your time. If people want to get hold of you at DWM, how do they get hold of you?


Jeni Clift 28:25

So, website, www.dwm.com.au. Emails are jeni.clift@dwm.com.au and nick.clift@dwm.com.au. Both on LinkedIn, both on Facebook. Nick checks Facebook about twice a year, maybe once a year. But probably LinkedIn is the best. Unfortunately, my mother couldn't spell when she named me Jenifer with one N. So, spelling of my name is J E N I so that makes it difficult. But yeah, lots of places to get hold of us.


Debra Chantry-Taylor 29:01

That's fantastic. Hey, look, I really appreciate you giving me your time today and sharing with the listeners. I'm looking forward, we're gonna get your partner on board and Jeni, you and I are gonna be chatting more about the EOS stuff as well. So we'll see you again. But again, it is Friday after a very, very long day. So, I really appreciate your time.


Jeni Clift 29:17

thank you. Fantastic, thanks. lovely to be here.


Debra Chantry-Taylor

Professional EOS Implementer | Entrepreneurial Leadership & Business Coach | Business Owner

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